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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There was little apparent sympathy for the dead Americans on Mosul streets Wednesday.

"In fact, what has happened in Mosul yesterday is something expected," said Sattar Jabbar. "When occupiers come to any country (they) find resistance. And this is within Iraqi resistance."

"I prefer that American troops leave the country and go out of cities so that Iraq will be safer and we run its affairs," Jamal Mahmoud, a trade union official. "I wish that 2,000 U.S. soldiers were killed, not 20."


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This stuff pisses me off we are liberating and trying to make thier country safe. Do they really think that they can do it alone at this point . I wish sometimes that we can just pull our forces out and say you sort it out yourselve. Then
I bet it wouldnt be more then a week till they come to the realization that with out us trying to keep the peace thier country would only become more violent.

[email protected]#K them !

:flame:
 

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OB - how about this - these people are only there TO HELP CHILDREN IN NEED - there is no military attatchment...

[ QUOTE ]

WESTPORT, Conn., Dec 21 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Save the Children USA reported today that its sister agency, Save the Children/UK, announced that it is unable to continue its humanitarian operations in North and South Darfur due to the tragic deaths of four staff members in two separate incidents over the past two months, as well as a series of extremely serious additional security incidents.

"Once again we extend our deepest sympathies to the friends and families of four of our colleagues," said Charles MacCormack, president and CEO of Save the Children USA.


On Dec. 12, two Save the Children UK workers were killed during an attack on a convoy of humanitarian vehicles in South Darfur. Employees Abhakar el Tayeb, a medical assistant, and Yacoub Abdelnabi Ahmed, a mechanic, were traveling in clearly marked humanitarian vehicles when they came under fire on the main road between Mershing and Duma.


This marked the second violent incident that has claimed the lives of Save the Children workers in Darfur this year. In October two Save the Children UK workers were killed when their vehicle struck a land mine.


Save the Children USA, which has worked on behalf of children and their families in Sudan since 1984 and currently operates the largest humanitarian program in Darfur assisting 350,000 children and families, will continue to operate programs in West Darfur

[/ QUOTE ]


The world is a sick place.
 

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I have said it before in another thread but it bears repeating, a stable Iraq is a fallacy - there is no stable society from which to base it on. Tribal, religious and cultural chasms exist across the country - the sad fact is that an authoritarian government was the only thing keeping Iraq from civil war. Same goes for Saudi Arabia, Iran and quite possibly Turkey. We have nudged the region CLOSER to radical fundamentalism and we're hearing how it has made us safer. It's too bad that 53% of the American people actually believed this load of shiet.

George Bush has set about a chain of events that spell strife and misery for the region for decades to come. (And God only knows what is to come out of it here at home.) If it isn’t civil war it will be military actions by Iran or Turkey or even some other neighbor. GW has completely destabilized an already delicate region.

The idea that these people would welcome western intervention was a naive one from the start. Bush's simple-minded solutions and statements may play well to the U.S. people, but they do not play well to the rest of the world. And there is a very good reason for that, particularly in the Middle East. It's simply a much more complicated cultural, historical and political landscape.

We have no phucking clue what we are doing when we stick our noses in that part of the world.




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oldbike, they don't care for the same reasons you don't. show me three instances on this forum where you have expressed anger and pain about the iraqis who have died as a consequence of US military action. Show me 3 where you've thanked the saudi arabs who died for america in the attack on the embassy a few day ago. Show me where you expresseed anger and pain at the troubles of anybody who you don't consider "on your side".

You've picked your side. so have they.

and fundamentally, what the guy says about occupation is right (not the 2000 vs 20 bit). The idea that americans would be welcome with open arms as liberators and savriours was so ignorant and so ridiculous. It was never going to happen. In fact, there wasn't even any reason to believe that it was. Saddam might have been bad to them and their life may have been [censored], but I do not think that you can appreciate the humiliation and disgrace that being occupied brings, especially when the occupation is by an alien culture.

"welcoming the liberators" works when the oppressor is not one of your own. Meaning, if US and british forces drive out a german occupying army out of a belgian town, they are liberators and welcomed as such. If american forces displace a tyrant who is of the people that he has tyranny over, then they have replaced a tyranny with an occupation. You may believe that they should be grateful because you spill your blood for them, your bring them hope of great things, but it doesn't work like that. If the US GOVT turned tyrannical and oppressive and brutal, and suppose the chinese could and did invade and occupy the US, no matter how grateful you might be to them for getting rid of your leader, you will never ever accept them as your saviours. you will look into the streets and see chinese soldiers patrolling the streets and you will hate them for acting like they run things in your country. You will hear news about how some americans put up a resistance and were killed by the chinese and you will hate them. You will see an american get pushed by a chinese soldier who wil ush back and then get beaten up and hauled away for it, and you will hate them. You may be glad for what they did, but you will want them to go, get the hell out your country and let you run your own things, make your own mistakes. YOu will never be happy to see chinese trucks rolling down your highways, chinese soldiers patrolling your streets, chinese soldiers arresting americans, chinese contracted militia (mercenaries) having official sanction to do in your country whatever they have to.

at the end of the day, you don't have to think about what I've said. in fact, you're welcome to do what I know you will with it, which is just hate me for saying it. But you asked a question. if you've already made up your mind about the answer, I needn't have bothered.

cheers.
 

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eScreaming Dizbuster
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Consider how irate people were that several European leaders expressed a preference in the recent presidential election. Imagine if they'd enforced that preference by invading and occupying our country.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I hate work some times


But after reading a bit of your post I want to clarify when ever I see innocent people die regardless of thier nationality I feel for them and thier families .
I dont think the iraqis as a whole are evil or terrorists but I can't understand why they would want to see people die or be harmed .
If our leader was oppressing us killing us by the millions , and raping women and children ( uday and his brother ) I would hope another country comes in and puts a end to it all. I dont think we have ever expressed a need or want to take over thier country all we want is a more peacefull middle east.
*( and lower oil prices :tongue: )
 

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[ QUOTE ]
all we want is a more peacefull middle east.

[/ QUOTE ]

We didn't invade Iraq because we wanted peace in the middle east. We invaded because he had WMDs that he might give to terrorists, oh wait, strike that. We invaded because Saddam was a bad man.

And I'm thinking the Iraqis missed the memo that said we didn't need or want to take over their country. They did get the one about the oil though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
[ QUOTE ]
pudding7 said:
[ QUOTE ]
all we want is a more peacefull middle east.

[/ QUOTE ]

We didn't invade Iraq because we wanted peace in the middle east. We invaded because he had WMDs that he might give to terrorists, oh wait, strike that. We invaded because Saddam was a bad man.

And I'm thinking the Iraqis missed the memo that said we didn't need or want to take over their country. They did get the one about the oil though.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about aghganastan? (<spelling)

And I would not really call it peacefull when people are being tortured and beaten , killed , raped and thier land is and resources are being used for greed and to fund terror
 

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[ QUOTE ]
OldBikezx-10 said:
[ QUOTE ]
What about aghganastan? (<spelling)

And I would not really call it peacefull when people are being tortured and beaten , killed , raped and thier land is and resources are being used for greed and to fund terror

[/ QUOTE ]

(a) You do know that Afghanistan was actually where Bin Laden was based, right? We invaded there, removed the ruling Taliban and have basically left a skeleton force there (STILL looking for Osama)

(b) Rape and torture are bad, when we don't like who's doing it. Bush has no beef with Saudi Arabia and they torutre to their heart's content. Summary executions too - and likely the next fundamntalist state.

Nothing like a double-standard when you're trying to have moral superiority. :rolling:
 

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[ QUOTE ]
PorradaVFR said:We invaded there, removed the ruling Taliban and have basically left a skeleton force there (STILL looking for Osama)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Lt. Gen. Norton A. Schwartz, the Joint Staff’s Director of Operations, said:“In point of fact, right at the moment we have about 17,900 U.S. troops in Afghanistan and that number is adequate for the mission.”

[/ QUOTE ]
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Gruneun said:
[ QUOTE ]
Lt. Gen. Norton A. Schwartz, the Joint Staff’s Director of Operations, said:“In point of fact, right at the moment we have about 17,900 U.S. troops in Afghanistan and that number is adequate for the mission.”

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is. That's why they found Bin Laden months ago. They also have more than sufficient equipment and armor, eat filet mignon everyday and will be home for Christmas. :rolling:
 

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[ QUOTE ]
United Nations Drugs Office Reports Major Increase in Opium Cultivation in Afghanistan

VIENNA, 18 November (UN Information Service) -- This year, opium cultivation in Afghanistan has increased by 64 per cent compared to 2003, according to the Afghanistan Opium Survey 2004, released today by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC).

[/ QUOTE ]


I thought they came in to bring the production of drugs to an end because the money from it supported terrorism?
The Taliban banned cultivation of opium, by the way.



Back to the topic, it's a sad thing that people get killed.
But it's also a sad thing that it's appearantly important which nationality/religion they have, and that it's "sadder" if the people of the "right" religion/nationality die.

It was clear things like this will happen, still you chose to go there.
Now everyone sees you grieve your fallen soldiers (which is good) but don't care a dime about everyone else that suffered from your actions (which is bad, because everyone sees you don't treat everyone equal).

As long as you say it's ok to kill hundreds of Iraqis to save one american soldiers life they won't believe you anything there in Iraq.

And as long they won't trust you things like this will happen again.

Merry Christmas. Or Chanukka. Or Sunturn.

To the arabs: Merry Friday.
 

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You know how goofy this has gotten? I was sleepless last night thinking about this thread and how some people are so isolated by the cultural and social centrism that they truly cannot understand why there is resistance.

The irony was already pointed out by Haru - if another power were to invade the US and try to impose THEIR manner of government we would clearly resist. Our view of US-style government and society is so biased that we arrogantly presume it is welcome worldwide with the only issue being when our altruistic nature will be kind enough to supply it. Do I think we have a superior system of government? In concept, yes. In practice, not really. Think about it. Our Legislative branch is hopelessly inefficient and mired in posturing and conflict most of the time (see: British Parliament :wink: ), our Legal branch benefits and suffers from lifetime appointments and the Executive branch is beholden to the political and financial mechnisms of elections.

That said, is it preferable to a dictatorship? It still depends. It depends on the will of the people being ruled. Hussein, for all his faults and abuses, kept a fragmented society united under fear. The minority Sunni benefitted greatly under a secular society while the fundamentalist majority is anxious to impose Islamic rule. Essentially, we broke open a dam and are wondering why many (not all Ninja, I'm not blind) resist that change.

You ask how can they not care. Perhaps they care more about themselves than the strangers in their midst? Wouldn't we?
 

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I will say this once and only once people. We are here only because of the oil. If there was no oil here, we would not give a rats a** bout this place...
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Ninjaslayer said:
I will say this once and only once people. We are here only because of the oil. If there was no oil here, we would not give a rats a** bout this place...

[/ QUOTE ]

The voice of reason. Thank you Byron.




Hey Gruneun, My cousin is in Afghanistan. I'm sure he'll take comfort in knowing a Lt General thinks 18,000 soldiers are sufficent to do the job as he works Christmas searching what seems like endless miles for a murderer.


We all know upper management knows exactly what their workers need to get a job done, right? That's why all the Hummers in Iraq have sufficent armor and there are more than enough troops in Afghanistan.





That's all I going to say on the subject. I'm heading out of town. Byron stay safe and both you and Gruneun have a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
specialsymbol said:
[ QUOTE ]
United Nations Drugs Office Reports Major Increase in Opium Cultivation in Afghanistan

VIENNA, 18 November (UN Information Service) -- This year, opium cultivation in Afghanistan has increased by 64 per cent compared to 2003, according to the Afghanistan Opium Survey 2004, released today by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC).

[/ QUOTE ]


I thought they came in to bring the production of drugs to an end because the money from it supported terrorism?
The Taliban banned cultivation of opium, by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]


That is a much more complex subject than you would think SS. There is a valid reason why opium production is up even with the heavy coalition presence. Before we came in and ousted the Taliban the country was ruled by warlords. After we destroyed the Taliban, there was still a bunch of warlords with all this military equipment and a whole lot of sway with the local populace of their given province. In order to win the presidential election President Karzai needed the support of these warlords. Alot of the warlords money came from opium. If Karzai had tried to clamp down on opium production while he was still trying to win the Presidency then he would have lost their support and they could have caused ALOT of trouble for the elections. Already since his inaugeration(sp?) earlier this month, Karzai has said he wants to wipe out opium production in Afghanistan in the next 2 years. The largest hurdle he is likely to face is finding another crop for all these farmers to grow. Opium is one of the few crops that they can grow in regular cycles and it is by far the highest money yielding crop that they can grow. Opium is alot of peoples livelihood, and you can't just go and take it away from them without any repercussions. I don't think Karzai will be able to do it in 2 years, but it is a good start. Anyway, just thought I would show that Afghanistan is a much more complex situation that alot of people realize and all in all it is a HUGE success story for democracy. <-- I'm sure that statement will cause some arguments.

-Dave
 

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eScreaming Dizbuster
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[ QUOTE ]
Ninjaslayer said:
I will say this once and only once people. We are here only because of the oil. If there was no oil here, we would not give a rats a** bout this place...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I've been saying all along, and have taken endless grief from the warhawks about it. Let's see who argues against it this time.



[ QUOTE ]
. . . all in all it is a HUGE success story for democracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, if democracy means saying or doing whatever it takes to get elected, regardless of the truth, or the human consequences. Sounds familiar, actually.

So now Karzai can retain power without the support of those who put him there? I doubt it.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
evander said:
Hey Gruneun, My cousin is in Afghanistan. I'm sure he'll take comfort in knowing a Lt General thinks 18,000 soldiers are sufficent to do the job as he works Christmas searching what seems like endless miles for a murderer.

both you and Gruneun have a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

[/ QUOTE ]
So is my best friend, the guy who lives in our home, horses around with me in grad classes, and is supposed to be sitting at our dinner table every night. If you think our Christmas is gonna be like every other one, you're wrong. The insinuation that I'm too far removed from the situation to comprehend or comment on it is not only wrong, it's incredibly insulting.

If you look again, you'll see that I gave zero opinion and made no comment on the capacity of the current group to get the job done. I simply posted two quotes, one from a forum member and another from a Lt. General in charge of the operation. They aren't perfect, but people tend to forget (or are simply unaware), that those officers running the campaign came up through the ranks and have been in the military longer than most current politicians have been in office. They weren't just appointed to fulfill someone's political agenda. If you think that most of them give a damn about the political fallout of their requests, you're mistaken. They care about getting their assigned task done, then getting their guys home, quickly and safely. I'm a pretty cynical person, but if this General (who was, incidentally, seated in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee when he made that quote) has an opportunity to tell Congress he needs more men and chooses to say that he has a sufficient number for his task, I tend to believe him.

I'd like nothing more than to see my friend home or, at least, insulated by a larger group of fellow soldiers if that makes him feel safer or helps him get his mission done faster. Knowing him, though, I doubt he would ask for more lives to be disrupted if it wasn't truly necessary.
 
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