Sportbikes Motorcycle Racing Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
In the spirit of the ongoing debate of 12R vs. 9R w/ a 998 big bore kit here is a question:

Realistically, how much weight could you shave off of a 12R with the aftermarket parts that are available?

Obviously bodywork, wheels, undertails, exhaust, etc. are fair game.

How much would it cost to pare a 12R's weight down around 485 lbs wet? Or is it even possible to remove 60 lbs from this bike?

175hp and 100 lb.ft. is intriguing if it's in a machine within 15 lbs of the 9R.

The debate continues......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,180 Posts
Interesting question. The Motorcyclist wet weights are 467 and 547lbs for an 80lb difference.

The light wheels carbon fiber and titanium diet plan could probably get it (kinda maybe) close. I've seen figures from 2 - 4k for prices on big bore 'nines (depending on how much work is done by the owner). So if you gave the 'twelve 4k to play with...

Now how about a lightened big bore 'nine vs a big bore lightened 'twelve? /images/icons/cool.gif

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
376 Posts
I was trying to follow up on Ian's post in the Honda section, when some goober decided to lock it(just messing with you CBRdamon) he put up a great pic of a blue 02 ZX12, since I am a fan of blue bikes it got me thinking about a friend in AZ who has an 01 12 with a muzzy's big bore kit, friggin outragious, he would run mid 9's with a granny launch, and would pull like a nitro-methane drag bike to 180. A blue 02 with a big bore would be smokin, I am kind of toasted on these scrunched up rice rockets, maybe it's time to swap out the 1150RT for something that doesnt sound like a Briggs and Stratton!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
I'm working on that :) It's hard finding a carbon tank for the 9R, probably have to get it custom.

There was a team that ran the 12R at 24 of Le Mans last year the thing was a rocket but they ran into problems.

If you can read French you might be able to find out how much they pared it down to, check this site then click on Entrer dans le site: http://www.scratch-moto.fr/
they have photo's showing how much they strpped from it.

<font color=green>If your elbow isn't touching, what's the point in riding?</font color=green>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
221 Posts
Realistically, a 12 does about 165 EEC bhp at the back wheel and revs out quicker than a 9. TTS (a UK tuner) do a bore & tune for a 9 that does about 150 EEC bhp at the wheel without losing reliability, but they can also fit exotic wheels, ohlins etc.

If you reduce the weight of the 12 by adding carbon wheels etc., for the same money, you could reduce the weight of the 9 by the same amount, maintaining the 80lb difference. The 15 bhp you would be down on the 12 would be more than compensated for in a straight line by the 80lb advantage but even more so in the corners.

I know a lot of you are Kawasaki loyals, but if you want to make the ultimate road bike, the Gixer thousand is the starting point. Jack Frost (another UK tuner) has just built a 212 bhp, 106fft-lb Gixer thou at stock weight. It's turbo'd but by altering the boost pressure it can be everything from standard for tyre preservation when commuting, through slightly pepped up for the weekend, to completely insane.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Dr Spankle I agree with you in principle that the 1000cc Suzuki is the motor to build from.

The problem with the Gixxer is that if you are tall or larger than average the riding position is impossible. The reason I like Kawasaki products is that they are realistic. I can cover 400 miles a day on my 9 and still walk at the end of the day. I have not heard the same about the GSXR.

So I (and others in the Kawasaki post)are in search of that balance of comfort, handling, power, overall performance and affordability.

I was hopeful about a VFR1000 this year. Long term, a bike like the VFR would be close to perfect as long as it offered at least 120 rwhp and a wet weight somewhere around 525. Of course the currect VFR is heavier than that with a much smaller displacement so even that may be impossible.

The 9R is the closest thing I can get to what I want and a 12 would be there if it were just under or around 500 lbs (and not cost $18,000 to get there).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,290 Posts
Here we go again with gixxer masturbation....


Ever occured to you that some one who choses a stock 9 or 12 over a stock gixxer 1k would not want a modded gixxer either?

I like some Suzukis very much. I love the Hayabusa. I love the SV650. I just don't care for the race rep gsxrs. I don't care for ANY of the race reps. As a Kawasaki fan, I'd love to see a Kawasaki race rep, but I would not buy that either. I want one to happen mostly for the brand's image.

I complete reject that race reps are the "ultimate road bikes."

__
Life is precious. Treasure it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Shotimer, that is my one concern over a possible ZX10R. That it will be a take no prisoners machine that is marginally streetable and uncomfortable as hell. I think Kawasaki's strength is that it's sportbikes are very realistic and strike a balance between sportiness and all day comfort.

I would never buy a Gixxer for the very reasons you mentioned.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,396 Posts
As nice as Kawi's approach is, and as much as Kawi fans
are devoted, the fact is that their plan does not sell.
I am a Kawi fan to the point I bleed green.
And although I looked at other machines, just had to
buy a Kawi for the reasons mentioned above.
But their sales are hurting.
The 12 may remain the type of bike we are talking about,
but they may make the 10 if it ever arrives more
race rep. Just so they can sell more of them.

Is winter over yet?
 

·
eSpellinbeechampyun
Joined
·
6,773 Posts
Many moons ago, when I first logged on to Esportbike.com, I fiercly defended Kawasaki's position in the global motorcycling world. Their bikes deliver the perfect balance of power, handling and comfort in my estimation. And every time Kawasaki comes out with a new model or modified model, or tweeked model, I appreciate it for what it is, and forgive it for what the magazines says it isn't. But over the discussions, I've changed my mind about the coarse they're currently plotting.

I now see why a radical ZX-10R is necessary to breath life back into this struggling company. Because even if it turns out to be something I wouldn't want to buy (uncomfortable, racer ergonomics), it just might save the company. I love Kawasaki's for taking the high road when everyone else took the low road, but since it seems only 3% of the motorcycle buying population out there seems to agree with me (vs / Honda's what, like 40% share of the market?), they obviously need to do something to increase their market share, or disappear completely behind Suzuki's brand name. While I love what they've done to the 9R and 12R this year, I do realize that it isn't enough to pull any Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha riders off of their ride to get one. In order to do that Kawasaki has to stoop to their level and beat them at their own game.... only an all conquering ZX-10R can turn the current tides in Kawasaki's favor.

In business you have to go where the money is, and in that respect, the rest of Japan's Big 4 are way ahead of our beloved Kawasaki.



[email protected] those <font color=blue>OUTLAW BIKERS</font color=blue>!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Sad but true.

Kawasaki is the smallest of the big 4 Jap manufacturers and they don't seem to have the resources to update their bikes as frequently as Honda and Yamaha. I wonder if Yamaha is a about to turn the Sportbike world upside down with their "new" aluminum casting method?

It kills me to see Kawasaki fall further behind in literbike technology. Our biggest hope is for an earth shattering 150rwhp 445 lb. monster in 2003.

I don't think Kwaka is in any danger of disappearing but the alliance with Suzuki is a survival move of sorts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,290 Posts
Kawasaki Heavy Engineering, the parent of Kawasaki motor is bigger than any other player in the two wheeler market. But Kawasaki Motor is pretty small. They are smaller for example than the BMW Motorcycle division and also Piaggio...

But in the end the fact is that most sportbikers buy based on "street cred", i.e. how impressed the other guys will be. The Big 3 make great bikes, but Kawasaki is unique in being solely focused on motorcycles that have the makings of great long term relations ships. But that doesn't sell. THe average sportbiker wants the coolest ride and rarely will you find a yam,suz,honda sport bike that is more than 3 years old and still under the person who bought it new. I think the main exception is the CBR600, but then that bike shares its purpose with the Ninjas.



__
Life is precious. Treasure it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
221 Posts
Shotimer,

your points are well reasoned. However you need to realise that all bikes appeal to a small crowd. The categories we invent to descibe bikes are becoming so numerous that they fail to make sense anymore. Time was that a bike which sacrificed performance for comfort was called a tourer and one which did the opposite a sports bike. Then the sports-tourer was invented (probably by Kawasaki making an over-sized, overweight sports bike). Now before you blow, bear with me.

So now (in road bikes) we have three official categories of fully faired road bikes. Let's ignore what else has happened with muscle bikes, faired muscle bikes, cruisers etc. However, the reality is that what we really have is not black, grey and white but every shade in between.

R1s and Gixer thous are the ultimate sports bikes;
ZX9s and fireblades are sports-sports-sports-tourers;
zx12s and busas are sports-sports-tourers;
vfr800s are sports-tourers;
ZZ-R1200s are sports-tourer-tourers;
FJR1300s are sports-tourer-tourer-tourers;
and Pan-Europeans (ST1400 or whatever) are tourers.

So if you want the ultimate in speed and handling, at the minute you do not buy a Kawasaki. However if you want a real world compromise, you do. But trying to produce a 1bhp per kg bike doesn't normally leave room for roomy ergonomics and comfortable suspension which is why I sugested a Gixer was a better starting point.

Incidently, I've just ordered a ZX12 so I'm not Gixer fixated but I have had one Gixer 750 for 12 years since new.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,290 Posts
Dr. Spankle.

agreed. I guess we kawasaki fans are very sensitive to the idea (asserted or implied) that because Kawasaki is not into making race replicas for the street, that somehow their bikes are not good enough. And for the people who buy on street cred, they aren't.



__
Life is precious. Treasure it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,738 Posts
Kawasaki should sell a ZX-10 to compete with the other hyper-bikes and keep the current ZX-9. They do that with other classes (ZX-6 E and R) now, and have done that in the past. (The ZX-7, 7R, and 750 Ninja were all sold at the same time.) That way we'll be happy with a rational sportbike ZX-9, and the squids will be happy with (and we'll be proud of) a ZX-10.

I guess I strayed off the topic.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I have thought the same thing about a ZX9R and a ZX10RR. The only way this is plausible, I'd venture, is if the ZX7 was axed. I know that is blasphemy to you 7 lovers but that bike's days are numbered.

If the AMA and World Superbike rules change to allow up to 1000cc's of displacement in any configuration then the need for a 750cc platform completely disappears.

From a performance perspective the current 9 does everything the 7 does with less weight and more power. Realistically, I wonder if Suzuki will abandon the 750? It is a big seller and fills a niche between the brutality of the 1000 and the lightweight & peaky 600.

I think the current 9 would do well as a little brother to a "fully committed" 10RR. Even better, how about a more "real world" ZX10RR motor in the current 9 to make a ZX10R. The same thing happened with the 7R and 7RR. I guess the upcoming changes in WSBK and AMA will decide a lot of this stuff.

As soon as homologation rules disappear then I believe the 7R will too. Is this crazy thinking?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,700 Posts
If they continue to develope the 12R they way they have there doesn't even seem to be a point of designing a 10R.

Come next year, I just might be joining you guys in this forum. /images/icons/wink.gif

This is a friend of mines bike. It has about 50 miles on it finally... And about 7" of snow in the forcast.


 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top