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while watcing today's races. i kept hearing the term thrown around. whta is it? will it be useful to learn it for canyon riding?

 

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trailing your rear brake all the way into the apex. It keeps the suspension from spitting you off and allows for a bit more entry speed. That's the skinny. Try it on the road cause it helps.

Snoochie Boochies!
 

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I'm nowhere near advanced enough to try it but what I've read is that it's done in 10/10ths riding -- riding ba!!s out or, basically, racing. Done right it's that last little technique to carry as much speed as possible in the turn. Unfortunately done right it would seem to leave zero traction margin to avoid the idiot crossing the double yellow around the blind side of the corner (avoided a few of those on GMR) or the deer who steps out in front of you, etc., etc.

FireRR ~ I thought opening the throttle through the turn keeps the suspension better settled than braking since the engine is pulling the chain and effectively pulling the swing arm down and extending the shock leaving more travel to soak up road irregularities (I'm trying to describe something I read in Hough's Proficient Motorcycling if anyone has a better quote to replace this one).
 

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

I'm nowhere near advanced enough to try it but what I've read is that it's done in 10/10ths riding -- riding ba!!s out or, basically, racing.

<hr></blockquote>

You don't have to be advanced to trail brake and it's not just for racing, I allways use both brakes up to the apex then throttle out from there.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Unfortunately done right it would seem to leave zero traction margin to avoid the idiot crossing the double yellow around the blind side of the corner (avoided a few of those on GMR) or the deer who steps out in front of you, etc., etc.

<hr></blockquote>

You'd be surprised

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

thought opening the throttle through the turn keeps the suspension better settled than braking since the engine is pulling the chain and effectively pulling the swing arm down and extending the shock leaving more travel to soak up road irregularities

<hr></blockquote>

True from the apex on. Go into a turn with a good head of steam then dial up the wick to "keep the suspension settled" and you will be taking a soil sample./images/icons/wink.gif


 

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Most club-level racers and track-day frequenters trailbrake only with the front brake, as using the rear brake well requires a certain amount of finese that most people don't possess (otherwise, we'd be professional racers.)

As mentioned, trailbraking is done to help increase the average overall speed throughout an entire corner by having a person brake closer to the apex of a corner. However, your tires only have so much traction, and any force that you spend on braking will detract from turning-traction (and vice-versa). You shouldn't worry about trail braking on the street because if you're going fast enough to need to do it then you're not leaving yourself much room for a margin of error.

Also, trail-braking favors smooth, arcing racing lines, whereas street conditions usually favor late-entry lines for maximum visibility. With late-entry lines you try and scrub off as much speed in a straight-line as possible, then lay the bike into the corner while rolling on the throttle.

 
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The deffinition I always understood for Trailbraking was to brake late into the corner (fully to the apex) with mostly your rear brake. The rear wheel slides out a tad and this points the bike towards the exit of the turn allowing you to shoot out of the turn a bit faster than normal cornering would allow.

Right?


 

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Trail braking with the front brakes as some people said
in here does not make sense to me. Wouldn't using the
front brake upset the chassis, not settle it?

I understood trail braking to be staying on the rear
brake late into a corner, after already releasing the
front brake and settling the chassis.

 

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Mary has got a good grasp on trailbraking. Watch WSBK...Haga has always been know for his late braking and trail braking. Basically slide the rear end out a bit, effectively forcing an earlier apex and an earlier/harder drive out of the corner.

Objects in mirror are RAPIDLY getting SMALLER!
'98 Smokin Joe F3 - Miguel Duhamel rocks!
 

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Trail braking with the front brakes as some people said
in here does not make sense to me. Wouldn't using the
front brake upset the chassis, not settle it?

<hr></blockquote>


It would if you sit limply on your bike but by countersteering you can make the bike track where you want and counteract the effects of using the front brake into a turn.
It takes a little practice but if you're on the brakes before the lean there's no change in the chassis after the lean. With a good feel for the feedback from your tires you can carve a corner like being on a rail and still make mid corner corrections for the occasional road kill.


 

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yea i would agree that trail braking is a very delicate stlye of riding considering that locking up the rear tire is a strong possibility. something best left to the pro's no doubt. now using the rear in conjution with the front for emergancy stops is something all riders need to practice on a regular basis. as a basic street rider/canyon
rider. I think our focus should be on more of a smoooth type riding style vs the hard chargeing late breaking stlye of road racers. and that throttle transtion is of the most importance concerning street riding. Plus remembering the things not to do i.e. survial reactions circa "twist of the wrist" should keep all of us street riders busy enough.
Frank

 

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The reasons why us non-pros don't want to trail-brake with the rear brake are:

1) Because you actuate the rear brake with your foot you have less of a sense of what the brake is doing; whereas when you use your fingers on the front brake you can feel what the brakes are doing.

2) It is very easy to lock-up the rear tyre on a sport bike, and locking up the rear tyre while turning can be a bad thing (it is far better to wash-out the front and lowside than to high-side from the rear regaining traction when you let-up.)

3) The rear brake provides so little braking power compared to the front.

4) Using the front brakes and making the chassy dive forward makes the bike turn-in faster.

Yes, going hard into a corner on the brakes can upset the chassy (the ideal 45/55 or 40/60 weight distribution), but when you go hard in on the front brakes it steepens the steering, making the bike quicker to turn in.

Some people say they drag the rear brake around a corner to help with stability, but that has never worked for me. I always try to go through a corner with the throttle increasing the entire time; except when I'm at a track day or racing (mind you, I'm a slow racer... what the fast guys do is at such a completely different level of skill that it doesn't even apply to the streets most of the time.)

 

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I'm no expert, but trail-braking (lightly applying the front brake all the from turn-in to the apex)_has several advantages:

1. The guy next to you who is not trail braking will be left behind as he gets on the brakes and you sail right on by, since you'll be doing your braking turning into the corner rather than ahead of it.

2. By applying the front brake on turn-in, you effectively compress the front fork, allowing for quicker steering of the motorcycle.

3. I think that's it.

conclusion: As opposed to braking before the corner and making sure you're speed is set prior to turn-in, trail braking leaves little margin for error, and is thus not wise to be used in excess on the street. That is all.
 
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I don't get using the front brake in a corner. I mean, one basic rule that Twist of the Wrist teaches is that you need to be steadily rolling on the throttle through the turn to keep more of the bike's weight on the rear wheel since it's got the majority of the contact area with the street. Front breaking would drastically shift the weight onto the front wheel making you loose traction. In a full lean, why would this be a good thing? Someone help me understand this please...

 

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

1. The guy next to you who is not trail braking will be left behind as he gets on the brakes and you sail right on by, since you'll be doing your braking turning into the corner rather than ahead of it.

<hr></blockquote>

If the guy next to you is already rolling on the throttle through the apex while you're still on the brakes, isn't he going to sail by you?

What Alan said above makes the most sense to me (for the street). Set corner entry speed BEFORE the corner then lean and roll on the throttle. A late apex also means you can see farther around a blind corner in case a car is running wide (left curve) or there is dirt on the edge of the road (right curve).
 

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yes, you will have already sailed way by him. Think about it this way. Me and you are going 130 MPH down a straight away. You begin braking at point A, while I begin braking just before the turn-in point 60 feet ahead. In that distance, while you are applying massive brake power and I'm still on the throttle, how much of a gap will appear between us? It will be quite large.
 

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I found this on a car site:

Trail-braking is a subtle driving technique that allows for later braking and increased corner entry speed. The classical technique is to complete braking before turn-in. This is a safer, easier technique for the driver because it separates traction management into two phases, braking and cornering, so the driver doesn't have to chew gum and walk at the same time, as it were. With the trail-braking technique, the driver carries braking into the corner, gradually trailing off the brakes while winding in the steering. Since braking continues in the corner, it's possible to delay its onset in the preceding straight braking zone. Since it eliminates the sub-optimal moments between the ramp-down from braking and the ramp-up to limit cornering by overlapping them, entry speeds can be higher. The combination of these two effects means that the advantage of later braking is carried through the first part of the corner. In many ways, this is the flip side to corner exit, where any speed advantage due to superior technique gets carried all the way down the ensuing straight. The magnitude of the trail-braking effect is much smaller, though: perhaps a car length or two for a typical corner. Done consistently, though, it can accumulate to whole seconds over a course.
 

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With the bike, because you are releasing the brake more gradually, it also has the added benefit of minimizing the pogo stick effect that breaking hard then immediatly releasing and turning can sometimes have.

 

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I consistently trail brake, but the majority of the roads I ride are very tight roads, 60 could be considered very fast on them... I find that it allows me to take the turns faster than I would by braking before the turn and rolling the throttle once I am in the turn... Though I do use my back brake and there are times when I am on the throttle but not yet completely off the brake yet... I have found that it does seat the rear suspension a little better... Honestly, I am not looking for quicker turn in on the street, any quicker and I'll be over the double yellow and into oncoming traffic...

 

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Mary when useing the front brake to trail brake think of it like this.If you are at 30% of your lean angle you can be at about 70% breaking power and not upset the bike.Just change the percentages the harder you are leaning.

<font color=red>Whatcha doin?</font color=red> Chewin Chocolate<font color=red>Where'd you get it?</font color=red>doggie dropped it
 
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