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check out roadracing world.com `Katoh faster than Rossi at testing' - 2 stroke running better times than 4 stroke!!!

Katoh running under Rossi's best times from last year!!!
this is Katoh's first year on the machine, what happened Rossi?????
GO KATOH !!!!!!

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Dude, settle down. He was only faster by .13 seconds, and they've never tested at Suzuka before. Rossi had to use the entire time to find a basic setup, whereas Katoh NSR has been raced there for decades. Just wait 'til the actual race, I guarantee you that rossi will be fastest.

bitTRL1000
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Yes, but this is one of the first times Katoh has ridden a 500, he has no baseline settings on it either....

What? No! We can't stop here! This is bat country!
 

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He has no baseline settings, but he does have data from 10's of other riders who have ridden the same bike at Suzuka. Rossi doesn't even have that.

bitTRL1000
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hmmmn, i too also indicated before the boards crashed that it might be a 500 taking the win at suzuka... :) i'll say it again... i can't imagine anything getting through that little switchback at suzuka faster lap after lap after lap... than a lightweight "2-smoke".

expecting to topple bikes, the likes of the NSR & YZR (2-strokes), with likely over 20+ yrs of combined development in the first season... with a bike not having even 20 weeks of development (let alone 20 years, LOL) seems awfully foolhearty...!?!?! LOL i hate to break this to some, but 4-stoke technology hasn't progressed that much. the laws of physics are what they are and in all of recorded history... have yet to be significantly usurped in such the narrow span of time as we are dealing with here.
 

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Alright, I'm done with trying to convince you guys. You're right shamar, that the rules of physics haven't changed. But the rules of MotoGP have!!! 4-strokes could never compete before because they were limited to 500cc. I look at what you just posted and reach a totally different conclusion. You're right, 2-strokes have been around for over 2 decades, and the 4-strokes have only been around for 20 weeks. So you can't deny that that is evidence that 4-strokes have a lot of room for improvement. Now, with Rosssi already (even before the season starts) faster at Catalunya, and only .13 seconds behind at Suzuka, how can you deny that by a few rounds into the season that the 4-strokes (or at least Rossi on the RC211V5) are going to be the fastest???

Alright now I'm done. Next October, when a 4-stroke has won the championship, you will all see.

bitTRL1000
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We can speculate all we want, but no one can fortell the future. The fun part is watching what develops./images/icons/smile.gif

My pick may be Rossi for the championship, but SR1's got a point that the chicane at the end is WICKED! The 500's have the best shot of notiating it well...maybe well enough to negate part or all of the hp advantage of the 4-strokes down the following straight. On top of that, Katoh knows the track a hell of a lot better than most of the GP1 riders.

Is it just me or is everyone else here gettin' the shakes from jonesing to hear the new GP1 exhaust notes in a race?/images/icons/smile.gif


 

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well see, that's the nuance on which we disagree. yes, while they are less than 20wks old... from a genuine engineering perspective (which in essence is what these bikes are an exercise in) i do not think there is evidence of room for "a lot" of improvement... only just marginal amounts.

mainly because, racing 4-strokes have long been in development over in the AMA, BSB and WSBK for years now, and notably... in an even larger displacement to boot (10cc's greater, 990 VS 1000). with the staggering amount of funds ducati's been pumping into their "corse" operation just to retain their "stranglehold" on the title VS the competition, it's my opinion you've basically BEEN LOOKING at a "gp 4-stroke" in action for many years now. it's perhaps just difficult for the uninitiated to see past the WSBK label they've been given.

it's not like they're using any thing radically new... like superconducting magnets, turbine powerplants, or high modulus alloys. outside of that, it's all been done before. you seem to be contending "revolution" at a time in human history when technology (and the rules) only support "evolution" at best. i'm certain if rossi or (even foggy) could jump on one of bayliss' current '02 spec 999 bikes, they could lay down laptimes even faster than those "so called" GP 4-strokes. unlike cars, motorcycles are all the same. cars can have motors... front, rear, or mid engine... be open wheel or closed... be open cockpit or roofed... have 1, 2, 3 or 4 seats. be equipped with fancy down force generating ground effects, or not.

bikes, on the other hand, have a common denominator... they're ALL solely open cockpit, two wheels, motor "a mid-ship" and little to no downforce. from an engineering perspective, "like robinson carusoe.... they're primitive as can be"... LOL i guess they just don't exist as a "mystery" to me as i've observed how they do for many others...??? i'm confident, if i could somehow blindfold a rider and press a "mute button" for the sound, i can take ANY set of bikes and effectively engineer them so the rider could jump from one bike to another to another... back to back... and he wouldn't be able to detect which bike was which, based on his remaining sensory perceptions of power delivery and handling... unless i told him... :)
 

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maybe, but there's no getting around that rossi may as well be of Samoan lineage rather than Italian next to the likes of a diminutive katoh.
 

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If you think that the 4-strokes only have "marginal" room for improvement, even compared to the 2-strokes, then you are not just disagreeing with me, but also with just about every team manager in MotoGP. I can't even tell you how many interviews I've read with people who are actually involved in MotoGP that feel the 4-strokes will eventually, if not right away, dominate precisely because of thier lack of devlopment (as compared to the 2-strokes) under the Gran Prix rules.
 

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again, what "lack" of development might you be referring to...??? :) an R7/1 is another good example of a mislabeled 4-stroke grand prix bike. i vehemently defy any "one" to point out any "thing" radically different being employed (rs3 exluded) than what's already been raced...? it's a been there... done that scenario... :) surely, someone else here see's that i'm clearly articulating (and backing up with evidence) some extremely insurmountable and irrefutable points...?



rossi's gonna be "legs akimbo" on that 211 relative to katoh on his old NSR mount... LOL btw, regarding the earlier laptimes in prior testing... like 996p said in the beginning of this thread... "testing is not racing".
 

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I can't tell you exactly what needs to be developed; I'm not a MotoGP team manager. But I can tell you the Honda's V-5 is totally new. So just because it is a 4-stroke, doesn't mean that Honda knows everything about the power characteristics of that engine. And that's just the extreme. Although Yamaha's M1 is an inline-4, it is NOT a souped-up version of the R7 or R1 engine. It is a prototype design that has marked differences in engine power delivery and power output. Aprilia's RS3 is a new configuration that hasn't been seriously developed in WSB. Also, these engines are being placed in GP-spec chassis. That results in totally different handling and engine-to-ground characteristics that require lots of DEVELOPMENT to peform optimally.

I could go on and on about things that could have to been developed. Manufacturers experience in WSB will give them useful information about developing the 4-strokes, but I guarantee you that it will not result in a bike that is performing up to 0 of its ability within 20-weeks of its birth.

And once again, I defer to the people who are actually involved in this evolution/revolution. They know more about it than you or I, so let's not pretend that we know more than we really do.

bitTRL1000
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shamar, like you did in the dual exhaust posts?

benefit of doubt given, if it was either intentionally or unintentional...

the point mainly is it would be exceptional to have a website with stats readily available, perhaps we could add these links here?


<font color=blue>SPEED</font color=blue><font color=red>MATTERS !</font color=red> /images/icons/wink.gif
 

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4 strokes will without a doubt will eventually rule the roost in GP1. That being said there may be certin places that 2 stroke bikes will still hold an advantage. Even two strokes are not the same as they once where. Lets look at Assen as a case study. The lap record on that track was set in 1983 by Kevin Scwantz. It has not been beaten because the bike that Kevin rode had a crazy powerband and steered almost completely with the rear end. Todays 2 strokes have been tamed to allow mortals to ride them and to reduce the frightening number of highsides that happened in that time period. 4 strokes should allow more riders to compete and therefore higher grid numbers will result in closer racing. Who wants to see Rossi run and hide from the pack. Not me. Give me SBK anytime. 4 strokes will show us faster trap speeds but the real problem with them will be engine braking. I have riden a 500cc 4 cylinder 2 stroke and I can tell you that once you get off the gas they basically free wheel into the turns. There is zero engine braking compared to a 4 stroke. You really only have to worry about braking, your line and cornering speed. On a four stroke you have to worry about what down shifting will do to you line and rear suspension. The forces placed on the chain from the engine do affect handling and rear wheel traction. Slipper clutches help 4 strokes but it is still not the same. Thats where we will see the real challenge for the engineers.
 

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no pretending here... the res' backs it up. the motors essentially are all the same when determining peak power output once dealing with a given displacement. don't be fooled by something just because it's a V or an I or a W. they all have there own balance issues, but also there own trade offs in size too. it's funny how natural laws dictate you can't get something with out consequently giving something up. it's NEVER all gravy... :(

ris however, is the only one who's got me here... i certainly can't lay claim to having ridden a 500cc "2-smoke"... NIIIICCCEEE...!!! just a "clapped out" 250 priller. and yup, it's like freewheeling a bmx bike. i almost felt like i wanted to start pedaling backwards. LOL although, i'm working on the a true 500 if and when i eventually get to visit my cousin in spain. you can apparently rent one with tracksense during track days at almeria or hereth. :) as usual, you know i'll be all over that one.
 

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In regards to the 4 stroke engine braking factor, does anyone foresee automatic compression release so the bikes do freewheel into the turns like 2 strokes? They've got it going on in motocross bikes now (I hate to say it but Honda's CR450F does it the best), so how far out is it in RR bikes?

 

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well actually, that's akin to the way mazda's "miller cycle" engine is design to reduce "pumping loss", but in their instance it reguires fitment of a supercharger.

again, either way, unless your planning to "float" the pistons within the bores upon a magnetic field generated by a superconductor...??? LOL your still going to have drag being generated by the skirt/bore and ring/bore contact. the one most likely to "freewheel" would in fact be the 211 if only because it's got it's 990cc's split up over 5 lugs. but note, that's just a generalization... it's not exactly that cut and dry.
 
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