[slorc51]

Here I thought Bush had at least some sense. Today he awards the Medal of Freedom; highest award for a civilian, to that incompetent bungler George Tenet. You know, the guy who headed the CIA for 6-7 yrs and under his admin the CIA totally blew the intelligence re Iraq, Al Queda, et al. Tenet, the guy who told Bush it was a "slam dunk" that Saddam had WMDs.

Hmmmmmm, maybe Bush has started doing crack or something?

 

[sub_zero]

Didn't George T. really get thejob done though? He even sacrificed himself on the alter of Bush's ambition once he'd done what he was hired to do.

 

[slorc51]

No, he didn't get the job done, imo. The CIA underestimated the reaction of post-war Iraq; he gave bogus info on the state of affairs there, etc. Beorge T shold have been brought up on charges; although not sure you can charge someone with incompetence.

 

[Haru]

I don't go with this blame game. blaming the CIA for bad "post war strength" is a bit ridiculous because it was common sense for anybody with any expereince and an open mind. KNowing what happened in kashmir, I could project how iraq was going to turn out. Colin powell knew it too. bush/cheney/rummy/wolfie had other ideas and tenet told them what they wanted to hear.

did tenet fail bush? nope. He would have done that had bush ever had any honest intent to consider advice that didn't go along with what you want to hear.

I got laid off after my employer's sales tanked. I was the sales analyst and business planner. I knew they weren't going to make the sales forecasts they wanted me to make. I was ordered to make the sales forecast what they wanted to see. when it didn't happen, the company got in deep deep trouble because they had reorganized production and engineering for that high sales level. they were SURE they would reach that level.

They didn't. there was hell to pay. 20% of the work force was laid off. starting with me. employees of 25+ years were kicked out. my boss was demoted, kept on only because of his relationship with a vitally important client.

whose fault was it? mine? or the idiots at the top who had already decided what they were going to do, who didn't listen to me when I told them things that didn't agree with their forecasts? or the VP of marketing who CONVINCED them that he could get them the sales?

how did they recover? they blamed the market, they blamed the projections, they blamed the efforts of a few managers whose clients the management said would come through but didn't (as I predicted), and then having chopped off the respective heads, they marched on afresh. SOmebody had to lose their head and it wasnt' going to be the one's who caused the whole thing.

and so it is with Bush. bush and his gang [censored] up. and they got their heads. and now they pin a rose on tenet's robe because he gave them what they wanted to hear, but not powell who didn't.

 

[evander]

Finally I get to use this picture. . .

and this one. . .

 

[slorc51]

The duty of a CIA chief is NOT to give his superiors what they want to hear; his duty is to give the facts, as best as is possible. Tenet failed in this respect. imo.

 

[PorradaVFR]

[ QUOTE ]
slorc51 said:
The duty of a CIA chief is NOT to give his superiors what they want to hear; his duty is to give the facts, as best as is possible. Tenet failed in this respect. imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

This adminstration has been the champion of mediocrity starting at the top. I wasn't the least bit surprised that they would award utter incompetence, they strive for it. :rolling:

 

[JoshN]

Well, all I can say is thank God that dude Goss is the head of the CIA now. He seems totally non-partisan and able to speak truth to power :lol:

 

[TravellinJones]

Haru, so you're saying the Medal of Freedom was deserved?

The whole idea sounds hokey to me.

 

[Kricket]

So which is the higher honor?

The Medal of Freedom <drumroll> for Tenet

or

The Opportunity to Diversify One's Career By Seeking Outside Advancement <da-daaaaa!> for Powell?

Politics is so funny if you don't take it seriously. I mean, umm...Politics causes me to have pleasant diaphragm contractions with guttural effusions if I cause myself intentional sub-cognition.

 

[WFO-900]

.

 

[specialsymbol]

The last one is pretty funny... :grin:

 

[Stray]

[ QUOTE ]
"I knew they weren't going to make the sales forecasts they wanted me to make. I was ordered to make the sales forecast what they wanted to see."

[/ QUOTE ]

Then ethically, you did the wrong thing by releasing a report you knew to be inaccurate. Doing "as you were ordered" (when you know better) is an argument that didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremberg. If you "knew" better, then you should have reported so, irrespective of potential negative consequences (getting demoted, fired, being on the bosses shitlist...). You were being paid to report what your knowledge could infer, not to be coerced into providing errant information.

It appears that based on your report, actions were taken that might not have been taken had you reported your true informed assessment.

[ QUOTE ]
"they blamed the efforts of a few managers whose clients the management said would come through but didn't (as I predicted)"

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, more accurately as you didn't predict in your official report (where it might have counted).

It could be seen that this was your fault. Your signature appeared on the end of your marketing report right? /wwwthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

:wink:

 

[F4iHigh]

thats where moral highgrounds intersect with desires to remain employed (for even a little longer) and housed & fed.

 

[Stray]

[ QUOTE ]
F4iHigh said:
thats where moral highgrounds intersect with desires to remain employed (for even a little longer) and housed & fed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even think it goes into moral highground territory. It's a contractual thing. Was he hired to perform informed marketing analysis or just to rubber stamp obvious BS? We'll go by the actual job description here.

 

[Haru]

[ QUOTE ]
TravellinJones said:
Haru, so you're saying the Medal of Freedom was deserved?

The whole idea sounds hokey to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh no. I am not defending tenet. I was simply saying that I wouldn't let bush evade responsibility by for his choices by blaming tenet.

the medal of honor is BS in the sense that while he got heaved, he also got rewarded for being loyal when Bush needed it. As we all know, bush values loyalty above all else. he doesn't want to hear anything opposite to what he wants to do. Tenet obliged. that got him into trouble, but this is his cookie for being a good boy.

 

[Haru]

[ QUOTE ]
Stray said:
It appears that based on your report, actions were taken that might not have been taken had you reported your true informed assessment.


[/ QUOTE ]

bullshit, stray. Get off your high horse.

I told them what the deal was. I told them again. and again. and they didn't listen. THey went ahead and did what they wanted to do. To them I was just the clerk putting the numbers in the excel spreadsheet, and they didn't think it was my place to advise them.

THey asked me to find the numbers to put in it, and when they didn't look like what they wanted to see, I got called into a meeting of the most senior management to explain myself. I told them. and the VP of marketing, my boss's boss said that my numbers were low, he called my boss and told him what numbers they wanted to see. My boss just about crapped his pants and told me to put in the numbers they wanted to see. I told them then, I told my boss later, and then again. I couldn't find any scenario that those numbers would be happen. It didn't mean a damn thing to anybody.

REmarkable how people get so superior and judgemental without knowning anything near enough about what happened. I gave a quick and dirty summary, and suddenly I am being equated with nazis. you're a clever guy stray, but seems like you're too clever by half.

now I shall watch you play games of logic as you try to maneuver me into looking like the Nazis at nuremberg. well. you can sit here and act make like Cato all you want for all I care. :rolling:

 

[F4iHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Stray said:
[ QUOTE ]
F4iHigh said:
thats where moral highgrounds intersect with desires to remain employed (for even a little longer) and housed & fed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even think it goes into moral highground territory. It's a contractual thing. Was he hired to perform informed marketing analysis or just to rubber stamp obvious BS? We'll go by the actual job description here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course technically speaking you're right, but going against a supervisor's demands isn't going to do anything for you. It will eventually get you fired or demoted either way.

 

[PorradaVFR]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even think it goes into moral highground territory. It's a contractual thing. Was he hired to perform informed marketing analysis or just to rubber stamp obvious BS? We'll go by the actual job description here.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon man. You and I both know that the reality is very different than the conceptual. Organizations create insular thinking by the social nature of groups. If you can honestly say that you've never sugar-coated or adjusted your opinion for your OWN sake then you've been a fortunate exception to the rule. When self-preservation is on the line, most people will put their cards on the table then if their position puts themselves at risk, find a measure of compromise.

Given the choice between moral superiority and being able to pay the mortgage this month, I can't say I'd stick to my guns beyond the point where I'm putting my own head in the noose.

 

[pulse]

[ QUOTE ]
REmarkable how people get so superior and judgemental without knowning anything near enough about what happened. I gave a quick and dirty summary, and suddenly I am being equated with nazis. you're a clever guy stray, but seems like you're too clever by half.

now I shall watch you play games of logic as you try to maneuver me into looking like the Nazis at nuremberg. well. you can sit here and act make like Cato all you want for all I care

[/ QUOTE ]

:lol:

When I voice my opinion, Haru calls me "pulsie the fascist". I guess he can dish it out but can't take it. :frown: